BRAND NEW & LOVE IT

[cruiser]

I've done some reading here and really enjoyed the expert explanation of debounce & how it effects probing and all else too.
I can see where this is going to be a top notch place to hang.
I've heard bits and pieces for a while now about MSM but haven't tried it yet, although I did all the downloading tonight so that I may get it on board and try it this weekend.
The probing routine sounds to me like it will alone make it all worth while. I am more anxious than ever now for all this to come to fruition, mach v4 & MSM !

[DaveCVI]

Hi,
Welcome aboard. Let us know if you run into any trouble and we'll try to help you out.
MSM has been pretty stable so with luck, things will go fine.

Dave

[cruiser]

OK I got it loaded this morning then found out I didn't have the mach version I needed so fixed that and started fiddling with it to get my tool tables and fixture data in then I ran out of warm. It is just too damned cold out there and so I quit.
I checked the set up to make sure it was all there from my running smoothstepper setup and it appears good. I did not power the machine yet tho, I think that it is all ready to run but like I said it is COLD OUT THERE !
Initially, I'm a bit lost with the screen set but it does have a good look to it and yes i'm color blind in the standard red & greens. I in general like what I see but don't like that lost feeling when I look around at what is available. This should pass as I actually do something productive.
I am curious tho, I have two probing tools. one is solid and one is contact trip. I'm wondering about the over run and the solid probe ? I had a general debounce setting of 120 but zero'd it. My system is pretty quiet since I put in the grounding lines that are both very functional and termed as ground loop hazard !
More to come later after I load up on turkey fixinz likher and the like.

[cruiser]

I got the heater blastin out in the shop and have been running the probing some and see what you mean with trying to probe with to slow a feed. I zeroed my debounce's too.
Question, If I set up a ring gage bore for probing in calibration mode, What am I calibrating ? Same question for other possibles. I looked through doc's but couldn't find anything relative.
I'd like to be able to do some measuring with my probe but have not been able to get more than close to actual.

[DaveCVI]

cruiser,

There are multiple sources of error that can impact a probing trip point and hence a measurement made via a probe operation.

1) Centering the probe tip
the probe tip needs to be concentric with the spindle axis. Most probes have some adjustment for this - it's important to get the probe adjusted this way.
The MSM probing logic really only knows where the theoretical spindle axis is in X,Y, and it assumes that the probe tip is centered around that axis. Consider a probe shaft that is offset in X,Y (but still parallel to Z) - this would introduce an error dependent on the offset of the shaft (and hence the probe tip location). Mach has no internal facilities to deal with this type of error in a G31 result.

Most probes have adjustments at 120 degrees apart (because internally, they use 3 radial contact points), what one does is tilt the probe shaft axis until the center of the spherical tip is aligned on the spindle axis. This tends to be a rather tedious process of adjusting while measuring runout with a dial indicator.

That adjustment is step one.

2) Probe mounting
Once the probe is adjusted, before you remove it from the spindle, you want to mark the probe and spindle so that you put the probe tool back into the spindle at the same relative rotation each time (Or the probe adjustment has to be redone each time you mount the probe).

3) probe mechanism errors -
When the probe is used, it has some inherent errors built in due to the mechanics of the probe. For example: The probe tip has to move a finite amount before the internal probe contacts change state (the probe shaft tilts a bit before the probe triggers). This means that the trigger point event Mach sees does not happen precisely when the probe tip first touches the object.

To take this type of error out of the measurements, MSM allows you to do a circle probe of a cylinder of a known diameter. MSM knows the probe tip diameter and the (operator supplied) known calibration hole diameter. MSM gets a measured value for the hole and compares that to the stated value you provide - the difference is due to the probe shaft angle etc when the probe triggers.

Probe Calibration has MSM look at the difference and say, OK, we'll adjust the diameter of the probe tip the tool table to be what is should be to get the stated hole size.
This resets the Tool Table diameter for the probe tip to an "effective diameter" (slightly different from the measured physical diameter). The result is that this compensates for the "probe mechanism tilt error" and hence one source of error is taken out of subsequent measurements.

Note that changing probe shafts (longer or shorter) or changing the probe tip diameter will change the probe tip geometry and hence require recalibration.

Finally, MSM assumes the probe tip is perfectly spherical - if it is not, that would be another source of error.

4) Probe only measurements & resolution
The MSM probing operations were designed for work offset setting etc.
I included the "probe only" option as it was easy to include (software wise) while I was doing the code.

If you are going after precise measurements, you get to start thinking about the interactions of tolerances, absolute precision & accuracy of the machine's movement mechanisms (what is the minimum movement physical resolution of each axis) etc. All this will factor into the "Measurement result".

For example: my machine has around 10000 steps per inch, so let's consider the minimum movement I can get the machine to do to be 1/10k. A general rule of thumb is that a measuring device needs to have resolution at least 10x better than the measurement you want to take - so right away I have a usable measurement resolution limitation of 1/1000 or 0.001 inches.

I have to remind myself not to get too enamored with all the nice significant digits that the DROs display.... not all those digits are necessarily filled with good values....

Dave

[cruiser]

OK, Today I made some head way. I found where a problem has been in my probe. One of the post pins was making contact with the probe stylus and creating a short when probing anything conductive to ground. I pulled the pin out a touch and it is good now. After that I re did the calibration or centering of the stylus and This gave me the ability to calibrate the tip using that function and a ring gage. I then tested it manually against a known outside diameter and it was within .0003" and I'm happy with that.
I would like to see this probing array evolve into an advanced system capable of Near CMM probing capabilities. I think it would be great to set up information into the probing parameters and probe out some problems and see the answer pop up in the results boxes where we see the finished probing position now. This thing is GREAT ! I just hope it is not done yet !

[DaveCVI]

Hi Don,
It always makes me grin when someone tells me something they like about MSM

FYI, the Probing facilities of MSM are slated to get additional improvements over time. I try not to discuss product plans before their time - so I'll have to ask you to be patient - but I suspect you'd like what I'm thinking of.

Alas, there is only one person allocated for MSM and I'm busy making the ecommerce stuff work so that MSM can get released.
(semi-rant: ecommerce software is a field that really needs some standardization! You'd think that given the number of ecommerce web sites this would be easy to put together. Frankly, I've been surprised by the amount of custom integration required to get things going... )

Dave

[cruiser]

I have been off & on trying to learn how to use & get along with the power & convention of MSM !
Some things bother me with it. First is the extensive use of abbreviations on buttons which must be learned AND learned properly. The first & foremost area that must be learned is the tool & work offset area. With that in mind, and given the time I've given it so far, I must conclude that it is a handy, powerful, DANGEROUS & difficult to learn page full of confusion to me. I have been in the industry for over 35 yrs. and yet most of what I see here is foreign to me and difficult to learn and sort out. For that reason, I've been trying to alternate between msm & mach. I find that there is an incompatibility to be able to even that. For instance, If I use msm to probe out some parts positions and then go to mach......Well, I'm trying to learn this thing, but it is highly confusing and could really use a page printout in hand, that has all the definitions of the button abbreviations used with some appropriate definitions. This would be a major help to keep from tapping an automated button to set a tool length manually, and not suddenly find that the machine is now driving fast toward the table top to crash my last carbide cutter of that size !

When I set up my tooling, most of the time I use a standard (solid) on the table top, after going back to G54, which I leave virgin, to get my tool length. I do this because most of the time my part zero is the bottom of part or has been cut away or for what ever reason may not be qualified.

For this reason alone I would like to see the tooling page changed some. In my mind, from what I've experienced so far ! It would be advantageous to have the (manual) tool setting feature as common & the automated on a fly out option. With both on the same page (are they ?) I find it extremely hazardous to my tools, and set-up. I still have not found the real difference between the options and thus won't use MSM till I can comfortably tell the difference at a glance.
I am used to many industrial standards of operation, which I'm sure are here, but, under different inputs. My memory is struggling with it and I have on many occasions now have tried to find and study the conventions you have implemented only to become flustered and apprehensive.

So far I find that the direction of evolution that msm is taking is one of extreme power and productivity and is going to be extremely desirable !
BUT ! it is just as difficult to learn all the new "SPEAK" in order to use it with any fluidity and peace of mind.

Needless to say, I am struggling here. I see the power potential. I fear the use !
Without an in hand reference sheet, I find it dangerous.

I continue to read the manuals provided (very handy ) but, at times I get the impresion I missed something, I feel it bounces around at times, I find it dificult to zero in on one facet and get the info I need to move on.

Frankly, I've been surprised by the amount of custom integration required >LEARNING< to get things going... )
hope you don't mind but I borrowed your last line in reply above to express my point (sort of )

I'M NOT GIVING UP, I SSSSTRUGLE ONWARD AND UPWARD TILL I HIT BOTTOM !


Read more: calypsoventures.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=discussion&action=display&thread=12#ixzz1S0sKwvYy

[DaveCVI]

Hi Don,

In MSM 1.1.8.d4 (the current beta) I did some work on the manual to better explain the tooling page options. In particular how they relate to Touch plates and probes.

These documentation changes are not in the user manual for 1.1.7 or before -
If you have not looked at the latest manual, could you give it a glance?
I'd very much like to know if it improved things or not - and the only way I'll know is to get feedback from folks like you).

You may also be interested in these posts (much of which is now incorporated in the manual updates):
calypsoventures.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=msmsupport&action=display&thread=124

Dave

[cruiser]

Recently I updated all of my software which includes, Mach 3.043.038, Smoothstepper & driver, MSM to 1.1.8 d4 beta. So the reading as of recently has been the up to date info. I realize I must just keep up with it till it sinks in with some practical (& safe ) application.
This morning I decided to re-check my base line settings, starting with my homing reference of face of spindle to table top is zero and post that into my homing reference. It only changed by .0005" Then start getting my tool probing base cleaned up and calibrated for use again. I had some unknown issues with a prior setting macro which changed and became useless so I dropped it from use.
I still would greatly appreciate a few printable sheets of specific reference to help sort out the buttons and help to refrain hitting the wrong one. I am going back to the manual now and look for a few pages to print out as an aid, I just don't want to print out a ream of paper !
So bact to the grind till I get something that works, hopefully without useing up all my spare parts !

[cruiser]

MY BAD !
I watched your video and it answered one big question for me. The problem was that the solution was too simple for me !
I still need/want to set-up for digitally probing tools again, but, I'm a bit concerned after yesterday's glitch. I had been going back and forth between MSM & MACH, checking con-figs then went to probe the position where the tool probe will be when I remembered that I hadn't re-homed machine. The Z homed as expected, then the Y started to home and began slamming my switch or hard stop, not sure. I hit the panic button to stop it, shut it all down and called it a night, fully expecting major problems today. Well, I ran my checks this morning and all looked well and good so I tried referencing and all was well and good. I'm a bit more than puzzled.
Now to go back out and try to read and follow through the set-up for the auto tool probing. Maybe I should check the videos again first !

[cruiser]

Hi all,
Well, I got everything up to date / set-up / re-calibrated the machine / re-centered & calibrated probes. I don't think I missed anything !
I am more understanding now of the buttons and what they do and yesterday I used it to finish a set of custom parts for a customer. I made two adapters out of some 15-?PH stnls in the lathe then lastly tried to thread in lathe (5/8X11tpi) and the stnls just pushed my thread bar away, SO, I had no resort but to set up the mill to thread Now I'm hooked on this system. Everything went too smooth, I kept waiting for that surprise to loose me all those hours on the manual lathe. Much to my surprise & jubilance, everything came out perfect ! Now, I am going to be off and running full speed ahead and damned the torpedo's !
I really am enjoying this available process of auto probing the set-up, then just run the job !
I will still edit the programs with all my safety positions, to verify motion in single block, But, I really do now feel secure, but, I am still not letting my guard down as there is still one factor that MSM can't verify for me, and that Item is ME !
Looking forward to the evolution !

[DaveCVI]

Don,
I do have an optional MSM module in the works which is supposed to "operator proof" all operations. However, at this time I'm unsure of the release date as I'm testing the algorithms involved against my own actions... Every time I think it's ready to go, I find out I can do something the software did not anticipate

Current status is that it seems that the software is not yet up to compensating for the dumb things I can do.... If I ever get this working well enough for release, I'll e sure to let you know!

Dave

[cruiser]

HMMmmm . . . . depending on the type of stimulus modulation control it uses.....I might volunteer to do some testing, but I have an aversion to loud noises & shocking pain !
Interesting concept, On this I must ponder the possibility. The last time I volunteered for any type of stimulus modulation control It took a divorce lawyer to leave it behind ! I can still hear the echo of nagging.