True spindle RPM DRO don't work

[drlove]

Hi, I use the "Huanyang VFD controller plugin" to controll my VFD. The True RPM don't work w/ MachStdMill but it works w/ the 1024.set screen. What could be wrong?
Best regards L.

[DaveCVI]

Hi,
You are talking about the DRO labeled "RPM" (same label in MSM and 1024) - correct?

If so, that is the DRO which displays the actual RPM of the spindle (DRO #39) - to get a value in that DRO you have to provide the index pulse signal into Mach. I assume you have the index pulse input set up.
The DRO value is updated and displayed by Mach (I believe that Mach counts the pulses and puts a time averaged value into the DRO).

Some diagnostic questions to help us narrow down the possibilities:
There are 2 variables and 4 obvious combinations (MSM/1024 and plug-in/no plug-in)

What do each of these combinations do?
1) 1024 + no plug-in
2) 1024 + VFD plug-in
3) MSM + no plug-in
4) MSM + VFD plug-in

#1 & #3 work for me - as I don't have that VFD I can't personally test #2 or #4

A wild card question: Did you use MSM to turn off the mach menu bar?
(there is a mach bug when menus are off that impacts plug-in initialization)

Dave

[maurice]

I drlove

I received at the beginning of this week a Huannyang VFD that I will use to drive a 2HP 3 phases motor on a lathe.

I was surprise when I read that you are using a ''"Huanyang VFD controller plugin" to control the motor. I was planning to control it via 0-10volts from my breakout board. Can you give me a little more information and also the address where I can get this plugin.

All information will be welcome.

Thanks

Maurice

[DaveCVI]

Maurice -
the thread for the topic is on the machsupport forum

www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php/topic,14182.0.html

Dave

[maurice]

Many thanks for the link

It is a long thread (22 pages) but I will dig into it completely before proceeding with the installation.

Maurice

[DaveCVI]

Yeah - a couple of times I've wondered how a "finished" plug in can have that much discussion....
I Like the idea of talking directly to the VFD and skipping the D2A and A2D 10v stuff - but my VFDs don't use the same serial comms as the Huyang... so it's still on my "when I get spare time list"

Dave

[drlove]

Hi all!

I'm not at the machine right now so I can't test the different scenarios
I don't get the RPM from an index pulse, the info comes from the plugin so can't test w/o the plugin.
Regarding the length of the thread I think much of the talk is about how to modify the VFD to accept the RS485 connection. Many VFDs comes w/o the RS485 chip (like mine) and the VFD is kind of dirty so interference is a big problem.
Getting the RPM in to MSM is not a big issue just nice to see it in the DRO box.
Another story is the Dwell time, could Mach3/MSM be configured to have a dynamic Dwell time based on set RPM and a acc factor or wait for True RPM to reach the set RPM?

Best regards L.

[DaveCVI]

Feb 19, 2011 8:20:51 GMT -8 drlove said:

I'm not at the machine right now so I can't test the different scenarios
I don't get the RPM from an index pulse, the info comes from the plugin so can't test w/o the plugin.
Getting the RPM in to MSM is not a big issue just nice to see it in the DRO box.

This is interesting information. MSM just places the standard Mach DRO for actual RPM on the screen and counts on Mach updating the DRO as Mach runs. If there is no hardware pulse train into mach then I would not expect the DRO to update (as mach is seeing 0 RPM on the input signal).

If the VFD plug-in is updating the correct DRO, the I would expect it to do that independant of the screen set that is loaded. If the Plug-in is not updating the correct DRO (or is using some plug-in defined DRO) then I would guess that the plug-in needs some more work to be compatible with the standard Mach DRO functions.

Given the low level that plug-ins can access in Mach, they could be doing almost anything - it's essentially impossible to know without looking at the source code for the plug-in.

Feb 19, 2011 8:20:51 GMT -8 drlove said:

Another story is the Dwell time, could Mach3/MSM be configured to have a dynamic Dwell time based on set RPM and a acc factor or wait for True RPM to reach the set RPM?

I'll have to think about this - I don't know of a standard built in function in mach that does this. Essentially you would want to compare the actual RPM to the Commanded RPM and hold motion until they match.
The problems come with the details - Off the top of my head:
1) how much variation is acceptable to "match RPM"?
2) If the spindle gets loaded down and the match condition fails, what should happen?
3) what about existing programs that don't expect this delay - what would be the compatibility impact on them?


Dave

[DaveCVI]

drlove,

Did you get the Huanyang VFD to show RPM with MSM using the stock DRO #39?

If not, I'll be happy to make a MSM set file that has the Huanyang UserDRO # where OEM DRO 39 is in the MSMrun page - if that gets the RPM showing for you, then I can write up how to make that modification so other Huanyang VFD users can do the same.

Dave

[drlove]

No. I had to use DRO #1002. No problem to change in msm screenset but a guide for people that don't know how would be nice I think.

//L

[DaveCVI]

OK, at least you have it running - I'll add a todo item to put this in the user manual as a tip.

The the VFD DRO 1002 a OEM DRO # or a user space DRO #?

Dave

[dbrija]

Sorry to bump an older thread, but I have the same problem. Using MSM 1.1 and mach 3.043.022

I have a vistacnc spindle tach (http://vistacnc.com/manual_download/iMach3_Spindle_Tach.pdf), and I have the plugin setup to point to OEM DRO #39, but it reads 0. It looks like it "initializes" (numbers appear and count down to zero where it stays). The plugin works fine with my other screen sets, just not MSM. Plugin gives 39 OEM, or any user DRO number (2222 default) as options.

May be nothing, but when I use the button editor, and expand, I don't see any reference showing DRO #39 set as a constant.

[DaveCVI]

Apr 22, 2011 17:29:45 GMT -8 dbrija said:

Sorry to bump an older thread, but I have the same problem. Using MSM 1.1 and mach 3.043.022

MSM does not do anything with DRO 39 (RPM) except place it on a screen (the run page). The value of the DRO is whatever it is set to my mach (or by a plug-in). I know that DRO 39 with stock Mach works as I can see it display RPM as my machines run. I also know the DRO works fine with MSM.

Issues only seem to crop up when a plug-in is involved that attempts to update DRO 39.

Apr 22, 2011 17:29:45 GMT -8 dbrija said:

I have a vistacnc spindle tach (http://vistacnc.com/manual_download/iMach3_Spindle_Tach.pdf), and I have the plug-in setup to point to OEM DRO #39, but it reads 0. It looks like it "initializes" (numbers appear and count down to zero where it stays).

Now then, plug-ins tap into a very low level of Mach. What DROs a plug-in updates is totally up to the plug-in - if a plug in attempts to "take over" DRO 39, it has to cooperate with Mach to so so.
Normally, the value of DRO 39 can't be updated by any entity other than mach - consider this excerpt from the Mach programmers ref manual:

SetParam

Sub SetParam(ParamName As String, ParamVal As Double)

This function allows a number of Mach3 internal parameters (not to be confused with Gcode parameters) to be set. Each Mach3 parameter is identified by name. The parameter whose name is given by ParamName is set to the value given by ParamVal. Valid parameters are:

Parameter Name: RPMOverRide
Description: RPMOverRide When this parameter is set to 1, the True Spindle Speed DRO (OEM DRO 39) is made writeable, over-riding Mach3s normal calculation of True Spindle Speed.

This infers to me that mach itself always sets the value of DRO 39 - unless this interface is called (or some equivalent interface from the plug-in level). My suspicion is that there is a problem between the plug-in and mach - in that they both think they are updating the DRO - and since mach is not getting index pulses (as the pulses are only going to the vistaCNC hardware and hence to their plug-in), mach is setting the DRO 39 value to 0 (which is what mach sees as it's input signals).

Alas, I think this has to be referred to plug-in vendor for consideration as MSM does not use any plug-ins as part of it's implementation (a design decision made explicitly to avoid just this type of conflict).

My best theory is that this is a plug-in coding issue.

The VistaCNC manual states that some versions of mach won't let it update DRO 39 - this is why they have a configuration option to have the plug-in update a user space DRO (2222).

If you want you can modify the MSM run page to display DRO 2222 instead of 39 (and set the vistaCNC plug-in to update 2222 instead of 39). I suspect that you will then see RPM values from the plug-in in dro 2222.

That would be the same change/solution that the Huyaung guys use.

OK, let's go with the theory that both mach and the VistaCNC plug-in are trying to update DRO 39 and Mach wins. An interesting question to consider would be : Is there a simple way to get mach to not update DRO 39?

I can think of two experiments to do -
1) startup your system, open the mach script editor and enter this line:
SetParam(RPMOverRide, 1)
then execute the one line script.

Does this convince mach to let the DRO be updated by the VistaCNC plug-in?

2) I don't know for sure, but I'd expect that mach only updates the RPM dro if it has an index signal configured as an enabled input.
Look in ports and pins and see if you have the index signal enabled.
If it is enabled and mapped to a parallel port & pin, disable it (as you are not feeding the PP with an index signal anyhow).

Maybe this would get mach to stop updating DRO 39 and thus let the vistaNC plug-in control it.

Apr 22, 2011 17:29:45 GMT -8 dbrija said:

The plug-in works fine with my other screen sets, just not MSM.
Plug-in gives 39 OEM, or any user DRO number (2222 default) as options.

May be nothing, but when I use the button editor, and expand, I don't see any reference showing DRO #39 set as a constant.

I don't really understand this comment.... the edit button script menu item in mach only applies to editing buttons with script in them. DRO 39 is not a button - it's a DRO - so I'm uncertain what you were trying to do or what you are referring to...?

Dave

[dbrija]

Apr 22, 2011 18:32:26 GMT -8 DaveCVI said:

Apr 22, 2011 17:29:45 GMT -8 dbrija said:

Sorry to bump an older thread, but I have the same problem. Using MSM 1.1 and mach 3.043.022

MSM does not do anything with DRO 39 (RPM) except place it on a screen (the run page). The value of the DRO is whatever it is set to my mach (or by a plug-in). I know that DRO 39 with stock Mach works as I can see it display RPM as my machines run. I also know the DRO works fine with MSM.

Issues only seem to crop up when a plug-in is involved that attempts to update DRO 39.



Now then, plug-ins tap into a very low level of Mach. What DROs a plug-in updates is totally up to the plug-in - if a plug in attempts to "take over" DRO 39, it has to cooperate with Mach to so so.
Normally, the value of DRO 39 can't be updated by any entity other than mach - consider this excerpt from the Mach programmers ref manual:

SetParam

Sub SetParam(ParamName As String, ParamVal As Double)

This function allows a number of Mach3 internal parameters (not to be confused with Gcode parameters) to be set. Each Mach3 parameter is identified by name. The parameter whose name is given by ParamName is set to the value given by ParamVal. Valid parameters are:

Parameter Name: RPMOverRide
Description: RPMOverRide When this parameter is set to 1, the True Spindle Speed DRO (OEM DRO 39) is made writeable, over-riding Mach3s normal calculation of True Spindle Speed.

This infers to me that mach itself always sets the value of DRO 39 - unless this interface is called (or some equivalent interface from the plug-in level). My suspicion is that there is a problem between the plug-in and mach - in that they both think they are updating the DRO - and since mach is not getting index pulses (as the pulses are only going to the vistaCNC hardware and hence to their plug-in), mach is setting the DRO 39 value to 0 (which is what mach sees as it's input signals).

Alas, I think this has to be referred to plug-in vendor for consideration as MSM does not use any plug-ins as part of it's implementation (a design decision made explicitly to avoid just this type of conflict).

My best theory is that this is a plug-in coding issue.

The VistaCNC manual states that some versions of mach won't let it update DRO 39 - this is why they have a configuration option to have the plug-in update a user space DRO (2222).

If you want you can modify the MSM run page to display DRO 2222 instead of 39 (and set the vistaCNC plug-in to update 2222 instead of 39). I suspect that you will then see RPM values from the plug-in in dro 2222.

That would be the same change/solution that the Huyaung guys use.

OK, let's go with the theory that both mach and the VistaCNC plug-in are trying to update DRO 39 and Mach wins. An interesting question to consider would be : Is there a simple way to get mach to not update DRO 39?

I can think of two experiments to do -
1) startup your system, open the mach script editor and enter this line:
SetParam(RPMOverRide, 1)
then execute the one line script.

Does this convince mach to let the DRO be updated by the VistaCNC plug-in?

2) I don't know for sure, but I'd expect that mach only updates the RPM dro if it has an index signal configured as an enabled input.
Look in ports and pins and see if you have the index signal enabled.
If it is enabled and mapped to a parallel port & pin, disable it (as you are not feeding the PP with an index signal anyhow).

Maybe this would get mach to stop updating DRO 39 and thus let the vistaNC plug-in control it.

Apr 22, 2011 17:29:45 GMT -8 dbrija said:

The plug-in works fine with my other screen sets, just not MSM.
Plug-in gives 39 OEM, or any user DRO number (2222 default) as options.

May be nothing, but when I use the button editor, and expand, I don't see any reference showing DRO #39 set as a constant.

I don't really understand this comment.... the edit button script menu item in mach only applies to editing buttons with script in them. DRO 39 is not a button - it's a DRO - so I'm uncertain what you were trying to do or what you are referring to...?

Dave

Dave,

I will try your suggestions.

What I meant about the button editor is that the VB editor shows not just the button code, but other information like I pasted below. I am new to Mach, hence my relative ignorance at this point ;D. I was thinking maybe it was something that needed defined or initialized.



' Miscellaneous Mach system DRO and LED Definitions (V3.x.x magic numbers)
'
' Mach DRO numbers
Const SlowJogPercentageOEMDRO = 3

Const CurrentToolActiveTLOOEMDRO = 32 ' Current Tool TLO DRO - active value, depends on G43, G44, G49 state
Const CurrentToolTLOValueOEMDRO = 42 ' Current Tool TLO DRO - the raw TLO value for the tool
Const CurrToolDiamOEMDRO = 43

Const MachXWCOffsetAxisOEMDRO = 47 ' X Axis Work Coordinate Offset OEM DRO
Const MachYWCOffsetAxisOEMDRO = 48 ' Y Axis Work Coordinate Offset OEM DRO
Const MachZWCOffsetAxisOEMDRO = 49 ' Z Axis Work Coordinate Offset OEM DRO
Const MachAWCOffsetAxisOEMDRO = 50 ' A Axis Work Coordinate Offset OEM DRO
Const MachBWCOffsetAxisOEMDRO = 51 ' B Axis Work Coordinate Offset OEM DRO

Const MachXAxisMachineOEMDRO = 83 ' X Axis Machine Coordinate OEM DRO
Const MachYAxisMachineOEMDRO = 84 ' Y Axis Machine Coordinate OEM DRO
Const MachZAxisMachineOEMDRO = 85 ' Z Axis Machine Coordinate OEM DRO
Const MachAAxisMachineOEMDRO = 86 ' A Axis Machine Coordinate OEM DRO
Const MachBAxisMachineOEMDRO = 87 ' B Axis Machine Coordinate OEM DRO

[DaveCVI]

Hi,
Actually it is only showing you the contents of the button script. It's just that MSM scripts are a bit more sophisticated than simple "single layer" Mach script examples that you find elsewhere...

What you are posted is the contents of a header file that the script uses (MachConstants.m1s).

I don't know which MSM button you opened, so I'll use the "ref all home" button as an example since this is also used in the manual for examples of how MSM scripts are constructed.

The ref all home button when you look at it with "edit button" contains a single line:
#expand <Masters\Scripts\All-RefAllHome>

When you expand the script (the E+ button), the contents of the file pointed to by the #expand line is expanded and that content replaces the #expand line. WHen the script is expanded, you are seeing the whole "un-collapsed" contents of the script. This expansion also happens for any #Expand lines which that first file itself contains etc.

The code you posted happens to be the start of the MachConstants.1ms file. This is a header file that defines names for all the mach magic numbers used by MSM (I hate the use of magic numbers in scripts - IMHO it's poor coding practice and creates unreadable hard to maintain code. All the mach magic numbers used in MSM have names and the names are usd in the MSM code).

The editor shows the start and end of each expanded #expand file.
The total (all expanded) file is the actual script code for the button.

Scroll down further and you will get past the header files that are expanded and then you'll see the code for the button.

If you want more info about #expand etc, see the Programmer's ref manual (avail from a button on the MSM reference page).

Dave